Response to Dr Yilmaz Kurt Response on Damascus Family Tree

Today April 20, 2015 I was expecting with excitement the evaluation of Dr. Yilmaz Kurt of the Beirut family Tree, instead he decided to evaluate a family tree given to me by a family member from Damascus, a tree that I did not have a chance to scrutinize, and he called it erroneously my TREE.

Here is a copy of his article on Adanamedia.com as I captured it - original is found by clicking here, along with my response to it.

For Turkish Response - Turkce Cevap - Click Here

MY RESPONSE TO DR. YOMAZ KURT ARTICLE :

I first wish to thank Dr. Yilmaz for the time he took and I will try to answer his article in a most logical and respectful manner - we ought to accept logical and rational critic as it makes us better people.

When Dr. Yilmaz first announced that he was going to respond to my Family Tree, I got very excited as I finally hoped that a major Historian and his research team is going to help me find the truth, and looked forward to reading his article on Monday.

I am a logical mathematician (graduated with high honors in Mathematics from the Universtiy of Oregon) I am not a Historian by education, but I do love history and believe in righteousness, I am known to be honest and true to my work as Allah loves if any of us does a job to do it well.  So may Allah help me with my answer, I shall address Dr. Yilmaz Kurt's points one by one as I understood them thru Turkish Google Translations.

I will respond in English (my first best language) then in Arabic, and I shall have a Turkish cousin help me translate to Turkish my response to also publish later.

In summary, I have shared with Dr. Yilmaz many information, yet interestingly, and perhaps as I hope  unintentionally, Dr. Yilmaz used what I gave him out of order and out of place, as he decided to delete or forget much of it, and worst of all he addressed "the wrong Family Tree".  I am hoping that these erroneous mistakes may have been a result of his lack of time to evaluate thoroughly what I sent him as Dr. Yilmaz is surely a very busy man of important stature.

MY ANSWERS:

A. The issue that I do not speak Turkish:

First, Dr. Yilmaz chose to discredit me by saying that I am a person who does not know Turkish, as if this is a crime.  I am sorry but it is not my fault that my father married a Lebanese and was never around, so my mother taught me Arabic, and French.  Then I learned a bit of German when my father married a German lady (I was 10 at the time).  Then the English language became my first language when we immigrated to the United States of America at the age of 15 and I lived there nearly 30 years.

I began to learn about my family history 5 years ago when I met my uncle Sherif who lived in Lebanon and who was the family historian and he passed on this job to me.  When someone comes to Turkey to learn turkish at age 54, I would say it is a major and honorable attempt that should be commended and not criticized.   Alhamdulillah, I speak more languages than most in Turkey dream of speaking, and with all my respect, the most important language to me is Arabic not Turkish, for Arabic is the language of the Quran and the language to be spoken in Heaven.  Also Arabic is the Chosen language that my Great ...Grand Father  Ramazan Bey and Halil Bey and Mahmud Bet and Piri Mehmed Pasha and his son Ibrahim decided as their official language during their reign.  As evident that the Ramazanzade Vakfi was written in Arabic and not Turkish.

So if Dr. Yilmaz is upset with me that I do not speak Turkish well and is holding this against me, Then  I am sorry to announce that after the breakup of the Ottoman Empire, many Ottoman families were left stranded in different countries, and now 100 years later, you rarely find any of their great children speaking Turkish, so does that mean we discredit them?  I hope not, that would do them injustice, and would rob them of their history because they ended up living in a different country whose main language is different.

Using Dr. Yilmaz logic, today, most Turkish people do not know how to speak or read Ottoman, does that mean their are not Ottoman?  Or does that mean they should not be able to relate to their history. I have heard Dr. Yilmaz discredit me in front of other historians again and again for I only speak little Turkish.  I certainly commend Dr. Yilmaz for loving his Turkish language, it is honorable, and I am unhappy that my father did not teach me Turkish, but if I have to chose learning ONE language as a Muslim, I will always chose the language of the Koran over any other language on earth, I have so many pious Turkish friends in Uskudar all wishing they can fully understand the Koran in Arabic.  So if Dr. Yilmaz does not hold my lack of perfection in Turkish against me, then I will not hold against him (a Muslim) that he is poor in the Arabic language.  And I promise him is he can become fluent in Arabic at his ripe age, I promise him to be fluent in Turkish in my ripe age.

B. Regarding the family tree, that Dr, Yilmaz decided to call Samer Bey Seceresi!

I hope Dr. Yilmaz corrects his title and apologizes for the mistake that will mislead people, as his article title is totally misleading, I have given him as I published numerous family trees from many who believe they are descendants of Ramazanogullari around the world and I continuously search hoping to find them.  The tree Dr. Yilmaz evaluated is a tree created by family members in Damascus and I posted it and did not evaluate it, and in our meeting in Ankara with Dr. Yilmaz about a week ago, I explained to Dr. Yilmaz with the presence of a translator (Dr. Umit) that the top part of the Tree, the Damascus family have guesstimated but they all believe they are from Ibrahim son of Piri, and my blog: ramazanoglu2013.blogspot.com clearly mentions this.  This tree IS NOT MY TREE.  Dr. Yilmaz erroneously stated that it was my tree or that it was the Beirut Tree.   

My Beirut Family Tree is also posted on the blog; it is completely a different tree.  So I am kind of disappointed really, I thought Dr. Yilmaz would thoroughly research and give time to respond to my various documents professionally, but apparently he did not have ample time, and he mixed up the trees.  So I do not know where to begin really to answer his article as it addresses the wrong tree, a tree that I did not have any chance to evaluate myself.  So his article is irrelevant to me.

C:   Dr. Yilmaz' attempt to state that our Ramazanzade branch is not Ramazanogullari without any proof from his part.  But instead Dr. Yilmaz used false logic to discredit any relationship.

Here, to answer Dr. Yilmaz, I will use what I am expert in: LOGIC.  Plus, I will use the rules that I abide by as a pious muslim believer, which constitutes the Koran and the Hadith of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).  

If Dr. Yilmaz can disprove something through factual logic, then I can understand.   However if Dr. Yilmaz cannot disprove my claims, then it is not logical to say that if Dr. Yilmaz cannot prove something thru logic it means that he successfully disproved it.  Strictly, a lack of evidence to proof or disproof does not mean that it is disproved, this is false logic.  Not having enough proof may just mean that one still needs more information to prove or disprove.

But historians use indicators, even in Islam, the Hadith is known today because of Tawatur (carried from generation to generation by multiple honest people), meaning how many honest and reputable people said what it was over the years and how it was passed down.  Tawatur is a proof in Islam. 

What family members have passed on to them by their grandfathers cannot be erased from memories as if they never existed.... Stories and accounts from reputable family members, a large group of them, are strong indicators that Dr. Yilmaz chose to ignore.

In Islam the prophet Mohammad warned us about how to address claims of Nassab (lineage).  He warned against questioning someone's lineage if they do not have clear evidence to disprove their claims, it is a sin in Islam to state that someone's grand father is not who they claim it is if no clear proof exists or enough reputable witnesses exist.  Proof is only required for inheritance, and usually two respectable and honest witnesses are enough.   Dr. Yilmaz somehow decided to discredit us because he cannot prove that we are from Ramazanogullari although strong indicators exists, especially when knowing that many records after 1608 were burnt by the Ottomans so that no true Ramazanogullari members return and claim their rights.   In speaking to several Historians at the Symposium, it was evident that the Ottoman Sultan of the time wanted to weaken the Ramazanogullari, so they appointed many members of the family as Valis throughout the Ottoman Empire, in fact Dr. Mustafa Alkan was kind enough to share with me that most appointed Valis during the era after 1520 were sons of Ramadan, it was an Ottoman policy to spread the Ramadans and weaken them, and they finally succeeded when a revolt occurred against the last Emir Pir Mansur Pasha, he had little support to stay in power.

In fact twice in history documents were burnt to disallow any family members from returning to benefit from the vast foundation, and different pretenses were used as reasons for burning the documents in both times.

D. Regarding existence of Ramazanzade in Beirut.

I thank Dr. Yilmaz that he accepted the fact that Ramazanzade exist in Beirut, in fact it is hard to deny this fact, because within the Ottoman Archives, 78% of Ramazanzade documents found were about the Vakfi in Adana and about Ramazanzade Halil Bey and Ramazanzade Piri Mehmed Pasha and Ramazanzade Ibrahim Bey (Piri mehmet Oglu)... And 59% of any other Ramazanzade mention were family members in Beyrut (my Family) while 41% were members from Adana.

Interestingly, Dr. Yilmaz decided to avoid many other facts I shared with him, I have no idea why he decided to discount them, perhaps because they were written in Arabic, a language he is not an expert in, or perhaps he did not have enough time to evaluate properly.

Dr. Yilmaz avoided to mention that I showed him (and his assistant) many other documents including one that shows that we are also descendants of Omer Aga Ramazanzade and his father Mehmed Aga Ramazanzade all the way back to about 1750.

Dr. Yilmaz neglected to mention the Ottoman Almanac "Salname" about Beyrut Velyeti commissioned by then Ottoman Vali Azmi Bey in 1916.  It writes about the Beirut Ramadan Family and specifically mentions their roots as Ramazanogullari.  A search about Beyrut Ramazan in the same era shows that 93% of mentions of Ramazan family members in Beirut are actually all from my TRUE BEIRUT FAMILY TREE, NOT FROM THE DAMASCUS TREE THAT DR YILMAZ POSTED ERRONEOUSLY AS MY TREE.  My family was the only prominent Ramadan family in Beirut.

E. Stating that we are like Mehmed Çelebi Ramazanzade.

In history, great researchers do not discount anything until they have clear proof to either prove or disprove.  They continue to search to find the Truth. In my search for my lost family history, I have learned not to discount anything. So if Dr. Yilmaz is insinuating that we are relatives of Mehmed Çelebi without having a proof, then I applaud him for finally selecting to accept a "maybe", perhaps a convenient maybe.  But using his recent logic of deciding to chose this "maybe" I ask him, what proof does he have not to also consider the other maybe, a maybe that many important indicators points it towards Ramazanogullari?

F. Creating a Ramazanogullari group.

Yes of course I want to create a Ramazanogullari group for my family, I do not expect a non-Ramazanogullari to be doing this, and I certainly know that a fake Ramazanoglu would never want other family members to show-up.   Maybe for political reasons, back in 1608, the Ottomans wanted to erase members of my family and disconnect them from their roots.  But we are real, and we continue to live on, and we wish to be reunited for the sake of Allah.  So yes I am proud to be searching for everyone of them, and may Allah help me in finding them.

Trying to portray or diminish the value of a family member as a "colorful" character is interesting.  I have a strong reputation in Lebanon for being a sincere and honest man, and I believe it is premature for Dr. Yilmaz to judge my character from a couple of meetings, I hope he takes a different route, I would be happy to post my resume and references by numerous respected Islamic scholars and friends from Lebanon who know exactly who Samer Ramazanoglu is.

G. Other important facts that Dr. Yilmaz neglected to mention.

During my last meeting in Ankara with Dr. Yilmaz, I had high hopes that I will be working with someone who is searching for the truth, frankly, I am disappointed with Dr. Yilmaz evaluation and conclusions, not from a historical perspective, but from a logical rational perspective.

Giving that records which can prove our link of lineage were burnt in all of the 17th century, and that again records were burnt again in 1920s and our family cemetery was destroyed in 1938 by the soldiers of president Inonu to erase any family records engraved on their tomb stones.  I asked Dr. Yilmaz to support a Ramazanogullari Y-DNA 111 Genealogy Project to find the real answers on where the True Ramazanogullari are today, he did not take me seriously.  If my grand parents ... grand parents... Lied to us, I want to know, it the Beirut Vali lied, I want to know, if I am a fake, I want to know.... and if visions I received from Allah asking me to follow this path are lies, I want to know... I just want to know the truth.

But if I am real as I and hundreds of family members also believe they are real, then we also want to prove it.  I assure you that fake Ramazanogullari will refuse DNA testing, but people who believe that they are real Ramazanoglus will want to know the truth, the real truth, and not some convenient made-up truth, they will all volunteer to take the test.

CONCLUSION:

If a patient goes to a Doctor to ask him to help him find his ailment, and he tells the Doctor that he heard of a new amazing procedure that, if he performs it, it would help pinpoint exactly his ailment and make him healthy but the good Doctor ignores it.  If the patient tells the Doctor what he feels and all the symptoms he has, and presents all existing test results but The Doctor choses to ignore and selects to evaluate someone else's test results claiming that they are that of the patient, then by all means such a Doctor would be considered performing malpractice, and it would be advisable that the patient seriously consider second and third opinions.

Therefore, I welcome the participation of the Turkish Historical Community, and that of all researchers seeking the truth to help me out and to support my efforts for my wide RAMAZANOGULLARI Y-DNA 111 Genealogy Project, a scientific procedure that can unearth the truth about the missing Ramazanogullari.   

Apparently some forces are bent on fighting any attempts to find the sons descendants of Halil, and the sons and grand sons of Piri Mehmet Pasha, I ask WHY?

I went to Dr. Yilmaz searching for answers, instead I find myself with many more questions:

1. Why did Dr. Yilmaz decide to select the wrong tree and claim it was Samer Bey Beirut Tree, while in fact I clearly stated that is was a Damascus Family Tree?

2. Why did Dr. Yilmaz chose to discount family accounts of hundreds of people claiming that they are from Ramazanogullari? Why he would not be interested in interviewing them?

3. Why has Dr. Yilmaz decided that we are not Ramazanogullari knowing he cannot disprove that we are?

4. Why did Dr. Yilmaz suggest that we are related to Mehmet Çelebi (without having any other proof) and not consider that we also might be Ramazanogullari but perhaps he needs more proof? 

5. Could Mehmed Çelebi also be a Ramazanogullari? If not, where is he buried? 

6. Why Dr. Yilmaz will not try to disprove us, by proving that we are indeed related to Mehmed Çelebi? 

7. Why did Dr. Yilmaz avoid mentioning my request for his support for DNA testing?

8. Why did Dr. Yilmaz decide to assassinate my Character instead of sticking to the real issue of 

helping us find out our roots in a most professional and objective manner?

9. Will I be able to trust working with Dr. Yilmaz after this erroneous non-credible article?

10. Why are those forces intent on robbing us of our history? What are they afraid of?

11. Why many are hoping that our family reunion in Adana fails?

12. Can Dr. Yilmaz Kurt provide proof that all the 240 names listed as beneficiary of the foundation are Ramazanogullari prior to 1870? Who are they?

13. Why many stories in Adana by existing Turkish family members have surfaced that there are fake Ramazanoglus in charge today? Who are they?

Dear Historic Society of Turkey, Dear professors and researchers, I am a seeker of the truth, may Allah be my witness, and I have good reason to believe that certain people are utterly scared that the truth comes out.  I request your support, I seek your complete objective evaluation to all information I have posted on my ramazanoglu2013.blogspot.com blog.

I have great respect for Dr. Yilmaz and for every Professor of History, I have nothing against Dr. Yilmaz and we all make mistakes.  I am still hoping that Dr. Yilmaz finds the time to truly evaluate properly what I gave him, and I am willing to provide all other Historians with the same information.  

Please support our Ramazanogullari Y-DNA 111 Genealogy Project, for if this project succeeds at reuniting a family, then we will all make history and receive good deeds and blessings from Allah for our work.  

Finally, please ask yourselves, why would a fake Ramazanoglu ask for a test that proves he is a fake, unless he truly believes he is for real?

With my utter respect to all.

Samer Ramazanoglu (Ramazanzade)

April 20, 2015.


Disclaimer: If I misunderstood completely what Google Translated, then I owe Dr. Yilmaz an Apology.  However, it seemed clear to me the direction his article was taken in an attempt to discredit me and over 1000 family members internationally, all believe as told by their grandfathers that they are Ramazanogullari, and without any clear evidence to disprove them.

IN SUMMARY DR. YILMAZ FAILED MY TEST FOR ASKING HIM FOR HIS HELP PROFESSIONALLY!